Curse

Chieftain Heavyhand · Nov 09, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Not only do the critters run when you look at them cross eyed the scarabs in the desert can use touch skills from up to 7 steps away. I haven't noticed any other touch type creatures doing this but it seems like if it is a touch skill they should have to actually touch you. None of my touch skills work unless I'm close to who/what I'm touching so how is it that the creatures touch skills have nearby instead of adjacent attack range? When my aggro bubble hits them I can see them at 7 to 8 steps away climbing up in mid air and biting me, before the “update” they would have to actually climb on you to do this now they can do it from anywhere.

I didn’t see any reason to change how aggro worked. It wasn’t like everyone had aggro down to a science, except for farmers and good players. It seemed like all the PUGs I played with until close to end game areas had no idea how aggro worked. Monks and nukers would tag along on the heels of the Warriors. Then when a fight broke out it was always pandemonium. Now no mater what it is like I’m playing with a know nothing PUG. I dislike the new AI but, I don’t see anything changing so I’ll have to learn to deal with it.

I do wish that monsters had to adhere to the same skill usage guide lines we all do. It is really annoying to have to deal with bugs that can cast touch skills like ranged ones.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 09, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSCavalier

The kiting is quite "realistic" behavior, actually.

A human being does it... if you are alone and being chased by a mob of high level opponents, you run! So, the logic is perfectly valid, and very smart for hero AI that needs to act as human-like as possible.

However, for random mobs in the PvE world, such behavior is simply frustrating to play against. Even a human knows when to give up when they are outnumbered. And, in certain circumstances, it makes encounters impossible because the very design of the encounter assumes that you should strategically nix the monks/mesmers/elementalists first as part of the strategy of "solving" the encounter.

Realistic? LOL surely you jest. When humans run, they run around the tanks and try to shake the aggro or use the tanks as blocks to give them a couple seconds relief -- they don't head for the hills.

Besides, forget realistic. We don't improve our skills in life by running around killing groups of "bad guys", so realistic has no place in this discussion whatsoever.

A big part of this game is killing groups of "bad guys" to advance to the next location or finish the quest you are on and therefore it's necessary. If that process becomes too tedious or just isn't fun for whatever reason then the whole PvE part of the game suffers.

The new AI isn't difficult to deal with at all. And you don't need snares.

Just forget about any tactics and attack the closest monster. If he runs then switch to the next closest one and attack. It's really that simple. So far I've been able to hero/hench just about everything including master's missions using this dumbed down technique to match the dumbed down AI.

Just make sure you take out mobs as you come to them so you don't get backdoored by 2 or 3 wandering mobs while in combat and you'll do fine. Olias does a decent job as a MM if you set him up right and you can have one healer monk and one prot monk. It's so much easier now than it was before that I rarely play for more than 2 hours at a time due to boredom.

I still fail to see what there is to "adapt" to. I guess it's kind of like adapting to 1st grade math after finishing calculus classes.

For those of you who enjoy the new AI, sorry if I offended you. For me it's a huge step backwards in the pursuit of simulated intelligence -- not that the previous version was extremely intelligent either, but this is worse and so much more exploitable.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- too much consideration was given to limiting solo farming and running and not enough was given to the impact on the rest of the game IMHO.

I hope that the current AI is not where they want it to be. If it is then my favorite past time has taken a huge hit, and if it isn't then I really wish more time had been spent testing before it was released as an update.

Gorebrex · Nov 09, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubics

I LOVE the new changes to the AI. I also think it's in complete conformity with the design team's goal of making the vast majority of skills equally useful in PvP and GvG.

Before the spell casters kited, speed boosts on melee characters and snares on ranged characters generally had zero use in PvE. Now they are required.

Combat is now more fluid. Instead of just running up to something and beating on it until it's dead, you need to slow it down to make sure your hits connect. The additional bonus is now that spell casters now do similar DPS to some targets because all of their spells are guaranted to hit, while a meleer will be slowed down whenever he's not on-top of the enemy.

With the addition of heroes, there's really no excuse for not being able to snare the enemy. If you can't fit one on your bar, put it on one of your heroes' bars.

PvE combat is still less engaging than PvP combat, but the AI changes are a definite step in the right direction.

Thats a problem, if you HAVE to have a certain skill, its changing the way the game is played for everyone. Before kiting, they had a use, you could use it for an escape if things went bad, so you could rez teamates, or to get out of a zone quickly if near the end and batlle isnt going well. Snares could be used to slow melee mobs, while a caster puts some form of degen on them. But now, we have to carry a snare of some kind, then thats a problem. The mobs dont always run, but earlier today, I was in Diessa, and had a Mind Spark literally run circles around me while I attacked another mob and Stephan chased him. Was pretty funny, actually.

You only get heros with Nightfall, as I understand, so what about those of us without them? Well, again, we'd have to change our build, making sure that we have a snare, and that the other 6 skills(if in party, bring rez sig) complement each other well. It limits choices somewhat, and thats not something I enjoy. Options are good.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 09, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

Thats a problem, if you HAVE to have a certain skill, its changing the way the game is played for everyone. Before kiting, they had a use, you could use it for an escape if things went bad, so you could rez teamates, or to get out of a zone quickly if near the end and batlle isnt going well. Snares could be used to slow melee mobs, while a caster puts some form of degen on them. But now, we have to carry a snare of some kind, then thats a problem. The mobs dont always run, but earlier today, I was in Diessa, and had a Mind Spark literally run circles around me while I attacked another mob and Stephan chased him. Was pretty funny, actually.

You only get heros with Nightfall, as I understand, so what about those of us without them? Well, again, we'd have to change our build, making sure that we have a snare, and that the other 6 skills(if in party, bring rez sig) complement each other well. It limits choices somewhat, and thats not something I enjoy. Options are good.

I agree and I argued this point previously. Being able to compensate for a new behavior doesn't necessarily make it more difficult or more fun. BUT if you have to bring that compensation for every battle then it DOES limit your choices.

Personally (as stated above) I haven't found it necessary to bring any type of snare or equip them on my heroes, but I do have access to the heroes and you've stated that you don't.

I couldn't agree more that options are good. The fewer real options you have, the closer the game comes to cookie-cutter play.

Matsumi · Nov 09, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Actually, you agree with me, just not seeing it clearly. Or maybe don't like that the point is clear and the current AI is so bugged.
I've bolded an important note and quote below:

Actually, I'm not agreeing with you, just trying to see it from your perspective. I don't believe it's an exploit if human and ai players can be killed by something such as snaring. I thought it was more clear in my previous post than that. I haven't heard of any "The snare farmer" builds yet, and probably will not. The topic of how the game can play itself has to more do with people customizing their heroes with better skills, thus having a better equipped ai to deal with situations when helping their human controller. Instead of having mhenlo or alesia spamming heal breeze with no condition or hex removal skills equipped. Or a MM hero instead of a blood henchmen who runs out to give stephan a BR.

Monsters try to kite, and we have the skills to stop kiters, even though you don't really need them. The reason I mentioned PvP was because if it's such an exploit to snare somebody and prevent from kiting, why do we have snares? Why do I have skills that cripple, slow, degen, knockdown, etc if nobody is kiting or running away from me? Kind of pointless really. Sure, PvP and PvE have nothing to do with eachother, but what I'm getting at is that it isn't an exploit. If it's incredibly so easy and boring right now, why are so many people complaining about chasing an ai opponent endlessly across the zone? Why, if it's that mind numbingly easy, are people so against using snares and some of the other counters to such a thing? Before they just stood there, but now they actually respond to damage and flee or try to kite you into another mob if you persist on chasing them. Where's the problem? Not being able to kill them because they're running? or something else?

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 09, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

i love it when sid keeps telling peolpe to adapt. i bought a game and i liked it, then they changed it and made it far less fun than another game for the same price. how should i adapt?

easy, ill go buy the other game instead.

i play games for fun, not to annoy myself. surely im not a masochist. are you?

p.s.: the gop has realized how wrong they were about things and so the arrogant guy near the top comes tumbling down. it's the way of the world. when you fail to listen to the rumblings around you crash with a "thumping."

Well what else can I tell you to do? Should I tell you to quit? You bought an MMO knowing that MMOs are always changing. If there's a change that you can't handle, you can either complain or just quit.

And I never tell people to quit unless it seems obvious that they'll never be happy with the game ever again because of a certain change. That's just how things are. So yes, I tell you to adapt to the new changes. If you'd rather me to tell you to quit or if you rather that I agree with you, that's not going to happen.

I have no problem with people complaining in a constructive way and because I disagree, I try to give some arguments in a constructive way. But if you, xXA1, can't handle me giving my opinion then don't visit the forums.

Show me how I was being arrogant or just stop hurling insults, mmmkay?

Sli Ander · Nov 09, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I pop into this thread every once in a while just to see how the argument is developing, and I've come to these conclusions:

1)At least half the population is experiencing abnormal behavior or exaggerating. I've not seen one instance of AI performing insane actions such as kiting 2 screens away. I've had AI that will run towards the nearest group after I decimated theirs(hoping I'll follow), but no bugs outside the normal ones caused by lag, etc.

2)As for being 'forced' to bring a snare, I've not had that problem. If casters run I just smash whatever stayed behind. I also like to use smite hex and scourge healing. Also look at it this way: if you do bring a snare, and ai tries to get away its not an exploit. If they change the ai so that it tries to heal when crippled, is using an interrupt an exploit?

3)I'll admit that I think something is wrong, one way or the other. Something has to be 'uber bugged' for this many complaints to be coming out. Complaints that I've not seen any personal evidence of(it didn't happen to me). I'm hoping all the fine-tuning gets finished so that we can see what the final product was supposed to be before everyone goes back to yelling.

4)I agree that this ai update made things easier, and I'd like to see the challenge upped again. This is from a limited perspective since I've spent time away from missions lately, but I try and keep informed.

The henchie controls are partially the reason for this, I believe, making it less difficult to hench areas. The other half is that when caster ai kite, they aren't contributing to the fight. Therefore fights finish faster. Now that Anet gave us hench controls and made things a tad easier, I'd like to see the ante upped a bit again. Just enough to keep things interesting.

Anyway, I'm glad this conversation is staying civil, and I hope the bugs get worked out soon.

But that's just my two cents

Sir Kilgore · Nov 09, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Before they just stood there, but now they actually respond to damage and flee or try to kite you into another mob if you persist on chasing them. Where's the problem? Not being able to kill them because they're running? or something else?

They are actually more likely to just stand there now, or run around without a purpose.

There's no point in chasing something across the screen unless it is the object of the mission you are on -- and then it will most likely come back to you if you stop chasing it anyway. Having said that, if people just wanted to run around and look at the scenery, then monsters wouldn't be necessary.

I think the main problem people have is that this is a fighting game by design, but now it seems the AI has changed things so that many of the monsters don't seem to really want to fight. It's kind of like being in a boxing match where all the other guy seems to want to do is avoid being hit and follow you around rather than actually engaging in the fight. After all, the whole purpose of being there is to fight. Why even bother getting into the ring if you have no intention of fighting?

As I've mentioned before elsewhere, if they don't want to fight then they shouldn't attack just because we get close to them, and if they do want to fight they shouldn't run away when they get a scratch. If you were in a PUG where the members acted that way you'd probably either complain or leave (I know I would).

But, once again, if you throw out any tactics (such as kill the healers first) and just blindly target the closest enemy to you, attack, then switch if he runs, you don't even need the snares. For me it's just sad that a supposed improvement in AI has resulted in less of a need or advantage to using tactics over just taking out the closest thing to you.

lunksunkunk · Nov 09, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Realistic? LOL surely you jest. When humans run, they run around the tanks and try to shake the aggro or use the tanks as blocks to give them a couple seconds relief -- they don't head for the hills.

Besides, forget realistic. We don't improve our skills in life by running around killing groups of "bad guys", so realistic has no place in this discussion whatsoever.

A big part of this game is killing groups of "bad guys" to advance to the next location or finish the quest you are on and therefore it's necessary. If that process becomes too tedious or just isn't fun for whatever reason then the whole PvE part of the game suffers.

The new AI isn't difficult to deal with at all. And you don't need snares.

Just forget about any tactics and attack the closest monster. If he runs then switch to the next closest one and attack. It's really that simple. So far I've been able to hero/hench just about everything including master's missions using this dumbed down technique to match the dumbed down AI.

Just make sure you take out mobs as you come to them so you don't get backdoored by 2 or 3 wandering mobs while in combat and you'll do fine. Olias does a decent job as a MM if you set him up right and you can have one healer monk and one prot monk. It's so much easier now than it was before that I rarely play for more than 2 hours at a time due to boredom.

I still fail to see what there is to "adapt" to. I guess it's kind of like adapting to 1st grade math after finishing calculus classes.

For those of you who enjoy the new AI, sorry if I offended you. For me it's a huge step backwards in the pursuit of simulated intelligence -- not that the previous version was extremely intelligent either, but this is worse and so much more exploitable.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- too much consideration was given to limiting solo farming and running and not enough was given to the impact on the rest of the game IMHO.

I hope that the current AI is not where they want it to be. If it is then my favorite past time has taken a huge hit, and if it isn't then I really wish more time had been spent testing before it was released as an update.

I totally agree with u. I think they put way too much of a focus on trying to nerf farming and running that they forgot what this game was all about. Instead of improving the gameplay and expanding the overall content, they decided to get tweak things that honestly dont make much of a difference in terms of fun nor content. Now we're left with a "broken" AI IMHO, and this was how it was intended to make our enjoyment of the game better? Thats like saying auto-theft is too much of a problem in a major metro area, so lets not let certain ppl have cars anymore, and those that have cars are not allowed to drive it around more than 10 miles a day. I mean come on, we have to tweak the gameplay so that everyone has to change as a result despite a problem that not a lot of ppl were complaining about. Thats just childish IMO, so someone is having more fun, lets make is so that either doesnt have anymore fun or so that everyone can have the equal level of fun that he's having. Right.....

midnight caretaker · Nov 09, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

oh come on the reason they did that with the monsters response was to try and get rid of the ebay money. Think about what happened with that update farming was ruined. I know I know u can still farm but it takes 10 times longer. Instead of ruining it for all players why didnt they just start selling gold in the online store. Before you all start raging its not much different from offering the skill unlock pack which is a way to cheat where others had to put in time and effort to unlock them the good old fashion way. By putting gold for sale in the online store and reverting to the old monster AI there would no longer be the ebay market (well as big of one) and people who enjoyed farming for greens golds or just plat could enjoy themselves again

Oh ya dont they test these updates before putting them into effect?? If not Anet should start and if they do time to start firing the retards

WasAGuest · Nov 09, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Actually, I'm not agreeing with you, just trying to see it from your perspective. I don't believe it's an exploit if human and ai players can be killed by something such as snaring. I thought it was more clear in my previous post than that. I haven't heard of any "The snare farmer" builds yet, and probably will not. The topic of how the game can play itself has to more do with people customizing their heroes with better skills, thus having a better equipped ai to deal with situations when helping their human controller. Instead of having mhenlo or alesia spamming heal breeze with no condition or hex removal skills equipped. Or a MM hero instead of a blood henchmen who runs out to give stephan a BR.

So you don't agree that mobs should run when in "real danger"? Or that kiting doesn't mean running in a straight line in the opposite direction of where you were hit? Or that using a single skill type (which isn't needed) practically destroys the AI cause it can't apapt? - I'm confused by what you wrote then, if you do not agree with that. And if you agree with that, then you agree with me.
Also, I was not refering to "farming", I was liking farming and the basis of simplistic cookie cutter builds to the current way of beating the AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Monsters try to kite, and we have the skills to stop kiters, even though you don't really need them. The reason I mentioned PvP was because if it's such an exploit to snare somebody and prevent from kiting, why do we have snares? Why do I have skills that cripple, slow, degen, knockdown, etc if nobody is kiting or running away from me? Kind of pointless really. Sure, PvP and PvE have nothing to do with eachother, but what I'm getting at is that it isn't an exploit. If it's incredibly so easy and boring right now, why are so many people complaining about chasing an ai opponent endlessly across the zone? Why, if it's that mind numbingly easy, are people so against using snares and some of the other counters to such a thing? Before they just stood there, but now they actually respond to damage and flee or try to kite you into another mob if you persist on chasing them. Where's the problem? Not being able to kill them because they're running? or something else?

You seriously need to go back and read what I've wrote.
There has yet to be a single mob kite. The mobs flee, as in run in the opposite direction of where they were hit. There is and has yet to be any problem of killing them. In fact, I listed previously many forms to exploit the broken AI. One such is simply hitting a monk from behind. It will flee into your backline and stand there, doing nothing.
Why are people against using snares? Cause it is pushing for cookie cutter builds. Not everyone logs into guildwiki too see what the current flavor of the month build is. Many like to play with all the skills they have and piddle with them.
Chasing a foe across the zone is fine, if you like to play tag. I prefer a fight, a battle, a struggle. Something that I'm unsure of the outcome during the skirmish. After an hour of playing tag, the game becomes a complete bore. That's why the complaints are about fleeing foes. If they really kited, that would be awesome, but they don't kite, they flee. - and I agree, a snare is not needed; but using one makes slaughter yet even easier (key word is "easier").
Where's the problem? You've stated the problem yourself several times. The AI is too easy. It doesn't act like it should, nor does it react at all (other than to flee). This makes the game unfun. Un-FUN. Therein lies the problem.

It's not that hard to grasp, the current AI is not fun. It's simply to dumb to create a challenge. We bought the game for fun, Anet has screwed up the AI to where it is now, and has made the game not fun. It is not fun because of all the reasons mentioned in this thread and the dozen others all over the net.
This is not a complaint against not being able to farm, it is not a complaint about being hard. It's a complaint about not being fun and too easy.

Lets stop assuming the complaints are about being too difficult or not being able to kill something in two seconds flat. It's the opposite of that. It's about being able to enjoy the game, have a "fight" that lasts a few minutes rather than a "tag" match, in which you know you will win cause the AI has yet to hit you... it's too busy running around in circles (after your monks) or fleeing to the edge of the map.

There is no "awe" factor in GW now, all mobs act the same and even the toughest mobs flee in terror at their name being called as the target. If I see a cool tough looking foe standing 50 feet into the air, I should be saying "That looks like bad news"; instead I am saying "No worries, it will flee once we hit it hard enough and then we will reverse kite it*".

*Reverse kitting for those who do not know, is where you send something away screaming in terror and you whack it from behind as it runs. This technique started in the first EQ by necromancers and rangers who would "scare" the target then chase it across the zone, killing it. It's a free and cheap kill. It's also simply one of the most dull practices around and quickly becomes a bore. - google reverse kiting and see for yourself... this is what we have in GW now.. in every single fight.

Matsumi · Nov 09, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

So there we have it then, thanks for clarifying. Although, I'm still having fun in this game, so I think I'll go back to playing it. Buggy ai or not, I still don't find myself chasing enemies around to kill them. If they run, I let them, and kill off one of the other monsters, then save the runner for last usually. Turns out he won't run if his monster buddies are dead (usually in my experience anyway).

Matix411 · Nov 09, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

3. Because the AI in #2 above follows a preset kiting pattern, you normally can simply chase him around and watch where he goes. If he tries to flee up against a wall, simply block his path. He'll stand there and do nothing, trying to squeeze by you. A sitting duck for the kill, without his buddies to harass you.

Yeah I've been trying this actually, it works I'll admit.
Funny tho when you think you have an enemy blocked and they squeeze out through the most tiniest of gaps ...
alas.
Still fairly effective.
I bring sprint too, but it messes up my current build so killing isn't effective because I'm one effective skill short simply because of a running skill, but it helps too.
Still tho, and I know a lot of people here don't mind the new AI or haven't experienced the kiting problem, but, I've seen way more kiting from enemies than actual fighting, and I dunno if that's just luck or what but meh.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 09, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

There's that genuine faux simulated artificial intelligence in action for ya!

gabrial heart · Nov 09, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

I haven't had much issue with AI kiting all over the map lately. Maybe i just kill them to fast after i snare them <shrugg>...

gabrial heart · Nov 09, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

Not only do the critters run when you look at them cross eyed the scarabs in the desert can use touch skills from up to 7 steps away. I haven't noticed any other touch type creatures doing this but it seems like if it is a touch skill they should have to actually touch you. None of my touch skills work unless I'm close to who/what I'm touching so how is it that the creatures touch skills have nearby instead of adjacent attack range? When my aggro bubble hits them I can see them at 7 to 8 steps away climbing up in mid air and biting me, before the “update” they would have to actually climb on you to do this now they can do it from anywhere.

I didn’t see any reason to change how aggro worked. It wasn’t like everyone had aggro down to a science, except for farmers and good players. It seemed like all the PUGs I played with until close to end game areas had no idea how aggro worked. Monks and nukers would tag along on the heels of the Warriors. Then when a fight broke out it was always pandemonium. Now no mater what it is like I’m playing with a know nothing PUG. I dislike the new AI but, I don’t see anything changing so I’ll have to learn to deal with it.

I do wish that monsters had to adhere to the same skill usage guide lines we all do. It is really annoying to have to deal with bugs that can cast touch skills like ranged ones.

The scarabs have ALWAYS been that way. 2 things are at play with that. One is the updated location isn't always accurate and they will sometimes warp right next to you. Second they come out of the ground as you run by, as they do they are casting, so even if you're 20 yards away once the cast is started, it will go through. This works exactly the same way for touch rangers and monk touch skillls. I can't tell you how many times i cast a touch skill as someone runs by only to complete it after they have long past me.

ducktape · Nov 09, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

I did notice that a lot of the monsters run away now, and it is pretty stupid with the way their AI is scripted. Monks especially...they run away when I get within a few steps of them, I don't even have to hit them. The first few times I played with the new AI I kept chasing the monks, thinking they would eventually stop and heal their team for a second or two before they resume running away, but they didn't. Occasionally if the monks had their health lowered by AoE or degen before they started running, they would stop and cast one heal on themselves, and then run away some more.

I quickly got tired of chasing monks, so my new strategy became:
1) Shoot warrior monster of a group with my longbow and run about an aggro bubble away
2) Turn around and press W in direction of approaching monsters
3) See which monsters run away just from facing them
4) Ignore monsters that run just from being looked at
4) Attack monsters that are still approaching and watch them die
5) Attack monsters that initially ran away, since they do not run now
6) All monsters are dead, press the Easy Button at my desk. Easy Button says "That was easy!". Yes, Easy Button, it was.

I actually used to die sometimes while fighting monsters, now I have found it is hard to die if I follow those steps. While I initially enjoyed the feeling of being unstoppable when fighting such retarded monsters for a few days, it's pretty boring now. A lot of skills are pointless to bring since I don't really need anything that isn't a damage or healing skill.

Just my input on the new AI.

streetboy · Nov 09, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by McMullen

Kiting is basicly running away from enemies while staying in range of your allies..
And i think the new AI is hilarious, two rangers with Ignite arrows and they go nuts!

May be you should think of starting crippling ranger (PvP build) or shock/gale war or water ele here, to chase and nuke them

Myria · Nov 09, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Guild Wars Nightfall : US$49.99
New "improved" AI in all chapters : Free
Watching a desert griffon flee Alesia's terrible wrath : Priceless

arcady · Nov 10, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

hmm.. just had a thought.. maybe the enemy casters only run from players and not henchies? lol

I've had moments were I got my kill and failed to select a new target, and watched as the mob and my henchies/heroes payed musical chairs around me.

Often, with or without me in it, the game looks like a slapstick comedy.

I've got A chasing 1 who is chasing B who is chasing 2 who is chasing C who is chasing 3 who is chasing A...

And in response to the reply to me when I pointed out how unreal this all is, from the point of view of myself being a veteran -
- It is not that I want an ultra real -game-. I want a plausible one -WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF- fantasy, where logical real tactics, given the skills and spells of GW, work when I use them, or when they are used against me.

Mostly, when they are used against me.

Those mobs should hold together, and should rain down heck on me and get me to scatter...

Maybe low level mobs should act like Larry, Curly and Moe, but when I get to a level 24 mob... I want to be facing Caesar or Khan or at least something other than a headless chicken...

The most basic tactic, that works under any form of combat, no matter what the technology and no matter what the spells or skills, is to maintain discipline and not route. At least, give me that. Everything else maybe is fair game - but at least let them maintain discipline and not route until they are losing and even then only if they are low enough level to logically lack morale.

The moment they lose discipline, the moment they route, that is the moment I am guaranteed victory. It might take time, but it is assured.

When that route is their very first choice of action on being targeted, then victory is too easy for me.